Hazards killing battery?

[dhanger]

I said I had no clues but actually I might, I just remembered. Don't know if I should start a new thread but I'll see where this goes first.

When the issue came up a few days ago my son told me when he pulled into my driveway late that night he noticed that the 4 way flashers were going off. He went to get the key to open the car and try to shut them off but by the time he got back it had stopped, presumably because the battery had died by that time. Is there a feature that turns the flashers on when the battery gets low? If so I've never heard of such a thing in the 20+ years I've owned the car (and don't know what the point would be). Or might this be a clue to the problem?

 

[movietvet]

A quick and easy and inexpensive repair attempt, would be a new ignition switch. The grey panel ones are the updated version. I have even done videos at you tube about how easy they are to do and that they are a known failure point.

 

[Mooseman]

I've never seen or heard of the four ways coming on by themselves like that however weird stuff can happen when battery power gets low so it's possible. The ignition switch is always a good start on trying to solve gremlins like that.

If it happens again, try putting a charger or booster pack on the battery and see if the four ways turn off. If they stay on, something is turning them on. Not sure if the BCM controls the turn and four ways so you would have to check the schematics. Maybe a short somewhere?

 

[dhanger]

I did replace the ignition switch in December of '23 but it was from Amazon (Dorman 924-715) so it may be suspect. I don't recall how long this has been going on but at least a couple of years. I changed the switch for a different issue which didn't help at the time--it was a common complaint of the engine shutting down at idle but starting up again with no problems. I finally tracked that down to a throttle position sensor but left the new ignition switch in place. Hard to say if the parasitic drain coincided with the switch change but it's possible.

 

[movietvet]

I did replace the ignition switch in December of '23 but it was from Amazon (Dorman 924-715) so it may be suspect. I don't recall how long this has been going on but at least a couple of years. I changed the switch for a different issue which didn't help at the time--it was a common complaint of the engine shutting down at idle but starting up again with no problems. I finally tracked that down to a throttle position sensor but left the new ignition switch in place. Hard to say if the parasitic drain coincided with the switch change but it's possible.

But, did the ignition switch you used, Dorman 924-715, have the grey panel indicating the updated version?

Plus, if you installed the new one from 2 years ago, with one tooth off, it can start but would still be clocked wrong. The teeth on the switch will have one wide spot. That wide spot needs to be moved to where it "just disappears" from sight and then installed.

 

[budwich]

Before you dig too far too fast, you might consider replacing your flasher module. The ignition switch focus is potentially good but there are bulletins on the flasher module causing problems. A quick read of exterior lighting shows that the module "sees" two kinds of voltage... one from an ignition "event" and the other from "always on" (which I think is a "hazards" item as one needs to have hazards without a key).

Anyway, I have never looked for the module so I don't know how easy it is to get at or even where it resides... but the notes suggest its a "smart flasher"... that's always a warning sign...

ADDED: It could also potentially be a "stock problem" in the steering where the "hazard switch" (wiring too) sits, but the flasher module seems the more likely cause. Overall, the issue is that a ground is showing up somewhere to cause the control system to "think" hazards have been activated.

 

[dhanger]

But, did the ignition switch you used, Dorman 924-715, have the grey panel indicating the updated version?

Plus, if you installed the new one from 2 years ago, with one tooth off, it can start but would still be clocked wrong. The teeth on the switch will have one wide spot. That wide spot needs to be moved to where it "just disappears" from sight and then installed.

Until now I was unaware of the gray panel indicating an update so I never made a mental note of it when installing it. Without removal all I can go by is the Amazon supplied photo showing a gray panel with an otherwise black case.

A couple months back I was looking through my parts box and discovered I had kept the old switch. It has the gray panel and is GM branded. Are you saying that only the updated switch has the gray panel and the original factory version would not have it? If so then I must have had it replaced by the dealer at some point but after 20 years I've forgotten a lot that I've had done. I removed the covers and made a thorough inspection--contacts were good with no burns or pits, contact engagement was firm when the cam was rotated and the detents still had undried grease. I'm thinking that I may still have a perfectly good OEM switch and just need to swap it back in.

I was aware of the gear tooth alignment issue so I know I made sure of that when I installed it.

 

[dhanger]

Before you dig too far too fast, you might consider replacing your flasher module. The ignition switch focus is potentially good but there are bulletins on the flasher module causing problems. A quick read of exterior lighting shows that the module "sees" two kinds of voltage... one from an ignition "event" and the other from "always on" (which I think is a "hazards" item as one needs to have hazards without a key).

Anyway, I have never looked for the module so I don't know how easy it is to get at or even where it resides... but the notes suggest its a "smart flasher"... that's always a warning sign...

ADDED: It could also potentially be a "stock problem" in the steering where the "hazard swtich" (wiring too), but the flasher module seems the more likely cause. Overall, the issue is that a ground is showing up somewhere to cause the control system to "think" hazards have been activated.

Interesting, I'll have to do some investigating on that issue. Something odd I noticed that may or may not be pertinent--I messed around with the flasher switch and discovered that it would not latch, when pushing it just returned to neutral position. I pushed it several times and the flashers came on only once during all the pushes and I'm not sure how I got them to turn off but they did. Very suspicious...

 

[Mooseman]

It is quite possible that the switch is at fault as the whole turn/wiper/hazards are all on the same unit. Without the schematics in front of me, I don't know if there are common wires to the turns and hazards. Since it is already faulty, you could go ahead and replace it to eliminate that as a possible source of the lights coming on.

 

[budwich]

Interesting, I'll have to do some investigating on that issue. Something odd I noticed that may or may not be pertinent--I messed around with the flasher switch and discovered that it would not latch, when pushing it just returned to neutral position. I pushed it several times and the flashers came on only once during all the pushes and I'm not sure how I got them to turn off but they did. Very suspicious...

Not sure that I understand what you wrote / referring to. The "flasher switch" is usually the signal light stock arm which controls turns lights and brights "flash" / "on" / "off". The "hazards" button is a push button which causes the external lights to flash at a continuous rate until the button is pressed again. The "flash module" is module somewhere which "reads" the signals from the various mechanical points (grounds / voltage) and sends that stimulus towards the control system.

Having said that, re-reading the post, it appears that you were trying to set the arm in the "on" position for the bright headlights.... right? If so, it sounds potential bad... you should have also seen an indicator on the instrument panel for "brights on". The "neutral position" is confusing.... the hazards switch / button has only ON and OFF.

Of course, maybe I am totally misreading things....

ADDED: just did a quick look at mine... I now see what you are referring to. The hazard button is in "lock down" position when the hazards are OFF but it is popped up to turn ON the hazards. And thus if you never get the hazard button to lock down, then potentially they are always "ON" just waiting that moment when they can drain your battery...

 

[dhanger]

ADDED: just did a quick look at mine... I now see what you are referring to. The hazard button is in "lock down" position when the hazards are OFF but it is pops up to turn ON the hazards. And thus if you never get the hazard button to lock down, then potentially they are always "ON" just waiting that moment when they can drain your battery...

Sorry, I can see where I wasn't very clear about what I was referring to. The button on top of the steering column, in front of the IPC.

See attached from the owner's manual page 3-6. It says that to activate the flashers push the button down. Then, although it doesn't say so explicitly, the button should latch, at least it seems that way to me. To turn the flashers off push the button again until it clicks at which point it should come back up (what I'm calling the neutral position) and de-activate the flashers.

With mine there is no latching or clicking--I can push it down but does not latch, just down then up back to neutral. So I was repeatedly pushing it down to try to get it to latch but never did--during that moment of insanity there was one push that activated the flashers (still not latching though) and then after more pushes the flashers finally turned off.

 

[dhanger]

It is quite possible that the switch is at fault as the whole turn/wiper/hazards are all on the same unit. Without the schematics in front of me, I don't know if there are common wires to the turns and hazards. Since it is already faulty, you could go ahead and replace it to eliminate that as a possible source of the lights coming on.

I plan to do the struts tomorrow and then look at the ignition switch. After looking at a lot of posts here and on TV forum it seems possible that I may not have gotten the gear alignment just right. I plan to go ahead and put the former GM switch back in and see how that goes.

 

[budwich]

Sorry, I can see where I wasn't very clear about what I was referring to. The button on top of the steering column, in front of the IPC.

See attached from the owner's manual page 3-6. It says that to activate the flashers push the button down. Then, although it doesn't say so explicitly, the button should latch, at least it seems that way to me. To turn the flashers off push the button again until it clicks at which point it should come back up (what I'm calling the neutral position) and de-activate the flashers.

With mine there is no latching or clicking--I can push it down but does not latch, just down then up back to neutral. So I was repeatedly pushing it down to try to get it to latch but never did--during that moment of insanity there was one push that activated the flashers (still not latching though) and then after more pushes the flashers finally turned off.

hmmmm.... maybe there is differences across years but on my 2008, when the button is "down" (locked), the hazards are OFF. IF the button is in "raised" position, the hazards are ON. IF your button is raised, then at some point they are just waiting to drain your battery when a ground finds its way thru the flash module.
At this point, it is highly likely that your hazards button is fubarred.

 

[TJBaker57]

to activate the flashers push the button down. Then, although it doesn't say so explicitly, the button should latch, at least it seems that way to me. To turn the flashers off push the button again until it clicks at which point it should come back up

My 2002 is like @budwich explained. When the button is in the raised position my flashers are ON. When the button is in the lowered position the flashers are OFF.

The circuit works by grounding a control line from the flasher module. The source of the ground is G102.

 

[dhanger]

Well, with respect to the ignition switch, the verdict is in--I hope. The photo below shows the switch I just removed on the left, the Dorman version, and on the right is the one I had removed a couple years ago, the GM version. The Dorman shows the gear in position as removed, and the GM shows the gear in the correct position according to multiple sources. Clearly I had the Dorman switch off by one tooth. Either my original sources were incorrect (unlikely) or I wasn't careful when inserting it and it moved (more likely). So as of now I have the GM version installed with the gear correct. After installing and checking all positions with the key, at the last I removed the key and jiggled the key cylinder assembly to make sure the battery indicator on the dash did not come on. Whether that solves my battery drain problem or not will take a long time to be sure of.



As for the flasher switch, I'm mystified. It doesn't make sense GM would make a change from 2002 to 2004, then back again sometime before 2008. But my manual (as posted earlier) clearly states to push down to turn the flashers on. In any case, the switch is apparently shot, as it doesn't latch at all and doesn't turn the flashers on except for that one anomaly I mentioned before. I'm going to put that on the back burner for now as my gut feeling is it has nothing to do with the battery drain, but I'll have to replace the switch sometime.

Finally, back to my original subject, the gas struts! All went well except for a couple of minor issues. There were some rubber bumpers installed OEM that interfered with the strut when closed so I had to remove those which was a little disappointing. I don't know why the photo is sideways, it was correct in the camera and before I uploaded it, I guess you'll have to turn your head.



When drilling for the hood mounted ball stud bracket be careful not to put too much pressure on the drill, when it broke through the secondary skin for the pop rivets the drill banged into the underside of the upper skin of the hood and left a couple of divots on the exterior.



Apart from those 2 things it was a nice upgrade. It only takes about 20# of force to pull the hood back down, which is quite a bit less than the rear hatch, so the wife shouldn't have a problem with it. And I'm happy to be done with the stupid prop rod.

Thanks to everybody for your input!

 

[movietvet]

Well, with respect to the ignition switch, the verdict is in--I hope. The photo below shows the switch I just removed on the left, the Dorman version, and on the right is the one I had removed a couple years ago, the GM version. The Dorman shows the gear in position as removed, and the GM shows the gear in the correct position according to multiple sources. Clearly I had the Dorman switch off by one tooth. Either my original sources were incorrect (unlikely) or I wasn't careful when inserting it and it moved (more likely). So as of now I have the GM version installed with the gear correct. After installing and checking all positions with the key, at the last I removed the key and jiggled the key cylinder assembly to make sure the battery indicator on the dash did not come on. Whether that solves my battery drain problem or not will take a long time to be sure of.

View attachment 119199

As for the flasher switch, I'm mystified. It doesn't make sense GM would make a change from 2002 to 2004, then back again sometime before 2008. But my manual (as posted earlier) clearly states to push down to turn the flashers on. In any case, the switch is apparently shot, as it doesn't latch at all and doesn't turn the flashers on except for that one anomaly I mentioned before. I'm going to put that on the back burner for now as my gut feeling is it has nothing to do with the battery drain, but I'll have to replace the switch sometime.

Finally, back to my original subject, the gas struts! All went well except for a couple of minor issues. There were some rubber bumpers installed OEM that interfered with the strut when closed so I had to remove those which was a little disappointing. I don't know why the photo is sideways, it was correct in the camera and before I uploaded it, I guess you'll have to turn your head.

View attachment 119200

When drilling for the hood mounted ball stud bracket be careful not to put too much pressure on the drill, when it broke through the secondary skin for the pop rivets the drill banged into the underside of the upper skin of the hood and left a couple of divots on the exterior.

View attachment 119198

Apart from those 2 things it was a nice upgrade. It only takes about 20# of force to pull the hood back down, which is quite a bit less than the rear hatch, so the wife shouldn't have a problem with it. And I'm happy to be done with the stupid prop rod.

Thanks to everybody for your input!

Yes, that wide spot, on the teeth, should be moved to where it "just" disappears.

 

[TJBaker57]

But my manual (as posted earlier) clearly states to push down to turn the flashers o

Well,,,,, I do push mine down,,,, and then as I release it it springs back up to a higher position to turn the flashers ON. Then to turn the flashers off I again push the button down and as I release it it comes up a little to rest at a lower position with the flashers OFF.

 

[TJBaker57]

Either my original sources were incorrect (unlikely)

I have noticed in paperwork that came with a new switch,,, AND in service literature I have seen a graphic that is incorrect.

In my Yukon I have never replaced the switch and I found it to be incorrect also, though not in a way that could be proved without observing the Passlock Sensor Signal with a meter or scantool.

I actually cannot remember ever 'fixing' the Yukon switch. It causes no trouble so I likely left it be. The only discernable evidence is that it activates the Passlock sensor with the key in the RUN position and that isn't 'supposed' to happen unitl the CRANK position.

 

[budwich]

Well,,,,, I do push mine down,,,, and then as I release it it springs back up to a higher position to turn the flashers ON. Then to turn the flashers off I again push the button down and as I release it it comes up a little to rest at a lower position with the flashers OFF.

That is actually an important observation... the actual height in the "travel of a push". To save digging into the column and a possible "unnecessary" switch replacement, the ultimate test would be to do a resistance measurement at the pins of the flash module. The pin going out to the hazard switch should "readily" show a ground connection at some point during the press action AND should remain "visible" thereafter... until the next "push" action. Based on the circuit, there is a bit more than just a "simple grounding". The circuit appears to also be held up with some powering from inside the module such that if the powering is not there, it is possible that the resulting signal sent by the button will not be recognized as a "change of state" (ie. high to low) maybe and thus no hazards operation will be detected... assuming also that the connection to g102 is good. Anyway, I think that the successful "hood operation" is out of the way... the dead battery can be within sight... maybe.

 

[dhanger]

Next chance I get I'll do some further investigation on the switch as it seems plausible with your latest input that it still could be suspect. I looked up the switch and found that it's integrated with the entire turn signal combo switch so it's not just a simple 'switch the switch'. Not sure if the steering wheel has to be removed for that but I've removed it in the past so I'm familiar with the procedure (disabling the air bag, etc.).

 

[dhanger]

Looks like a simple task to replace the combo switch, no steering wheel removal necessary. I'm just going to order a replacement unit and be done with it. It's never been replaced since new so it's not hurting my feelings any.

 

[dhanger]

So in another discussion about RA not selling to Arizona one of the alternative recommendations was PartsGeek. Their price is almost a third of the closest competitor, is this really trustworthy? It's aftermarket, not genuine GM.

12450067 | Partsgeek.com

Discount auto parts and accessories catalog for all foreign and import cars and trucks. Low Prices, Quality, Service and Free shipping.

www.partsgeek.com

 

[krunal88]

When you are replacing the multifunction switch, be sure to have an Allen key t25 Torx to remove the second screw for the switch. I had a tough time finding an Allen t25. A socket or screwdriver won’t fit in without possibly removing the entire steering wheel. I made it work with a harbor freight tool, but even that didn’t have much clearance without some force. Tool is below. Still needed a t25 bit that wasn’t included in the pack. Get the Allen key!

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html

 

[Mooseman]

The original hood struts thread got off the rails with this hazards issue so moved all the related posts to its own thread.

 

[dhanger]

I'm glad you did that, I thought it had gotten off far enough to warrant it.