2002 GMC Envoy won't start

C

culzero

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2011
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27
I have an 02 envoy that has been sitting in drive way for some time now. Every so often I go start it and drive around the block a few times to keep it running. A few weeks back it wouldn't start so I replaced the ignition switch and it started right up no problems.

This past weekend I tried to start it again with no luck. Replaced the ignition switch with another and still nothing.


I have proper battery voltage as I can insert key turn to on/start and remove key with no issues. The gauge cluster does not light up at all nor do any of the electric door lock or windows work with or without the key in the ignition.

In the past when I thought the ignition switch was faulty I could start it via the remote start I have installed. This does not work either.

Can you guys help point me in the right direction to start troubleshooting my issues? Thanks

Justin.
 
Sounds like a dead battery to me.

Take it out of the vehicle and have it charged, then tested.
 
What does your voltmeter read?

On the rare possibility you don't have a meter, take $5 and get one at the nearest Harbor Freight. They're a mandatory tool for all sorts of issues on this intensely electrical vehicle.
 
I did check the battery and I had 12volts available. When the key changed positions from off to on to run there is no fluctuation in the voltage. It remains 12volts.

The gauge cluster is dead. It does not show battery voltage or any other gauge for that matter.
 
Sup man - does anything work? Horn, lights, anything?
 
Scary thought but seems to happen this time of year: rodents.

I'm not saying this is your problem. This is just a possibility, and not a really big one, but it does happen. Little buggers find vehicles that sit for a while at a time and crawl up in the engine bay usually, out of the elements. They'll chew wires, build nests, you can even find pictures where they've stored dog food in the air filter box.

But I am smelling flaky wiring if the battery checks out A-OK. Usually a faulty serial line makes everything go bonkers, but it seems like that thing is really kind of "anything goes." Any thoughts from the other pros?
 
If your battery is good and nothing is receiving power, you probably need to clean the battery terminals and both ends of the large battery cables.

While your at it, check the condition of the terminals at the ends of the cables, sometimes they corrode and go open.
 
Or the ignition switch or the two fuses that feed it. Check with a meter.

RED on the ignition switch is 12V, fused by underhood fuse #34, and feeds the following three circuits:

White is hot in ACCY, RUN, START
Orange is hot in RUN
Yellow is hot in START

RED/WHITE is another 12V, fused by underhood fuse #36, and feeds two circuits:

Brown is hot in ACCY, RUN
Pink is hot in RUN, START
 
Thanks for the input. I'll try to check it sometime this week. I will even try to take a video if the troubleshooting doesn't come up with a solution
 
culzero said:
I did check the battery and I had 12volts available. When the key changed positions from off to on to run there is no fluctuation in the voltage. It remains 12volts.

The gauge cluster is dead. It does not show battery voltage or any other gauge for that matter.
Click to expand...

Isn't a properly charged battery in the 13v range? Have you tried jumping it?
 
strat81 said:
Isn't a properly charged battery in the 13v range? Have you tried jumping it?
Click to expand...

A brand new battery may read 12.7 or so, but a good-condition battery, fully-charged, should read 12.6V. They are constructed from six 2.1V cells (that's why there's 6 inspection ports on the top of most lead-acid batteries). The bottom-end acceptable voltage for a battery when expecting it to crank is probably about 10.5V, absolute minimum, and even then you may have slow/no crank.

When placing load on a battery it is also important to understand the rated amp capacity to make a proper determination on whether or not there is a bad cell. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and there's more than one way to test it to know if it's good, and the more tests you do the better off you are.

Put the battery on a charger until it is fully charged. Then:
-Voltage test. This is a simple multimeter test. A great-condition battery should read 12.6V, and 10.5V or so would likely be your bottom end.
-Specific gravity test (for lead-acid batteries). This can tell you if there's a need for water in your battery, or if there's a bad cell (it'll measure way off from the rest).
-Load testing. Harbor Freight apparently has such a tool available. I'm not sure on how exactly to figure in your amp rating, it may or may not come with instructions. If not, Google it. The idea is to put a load across the battery and measure the voltage drop to better understand the condition.

This information was all found quite quickly on Google. :rotfl:
 
strat81 said:
Isn't a properly charged battery in the 13v range? Have you tried jumping it?
Click to expand...


If I were driving on a daily basis then I would assume the battery voltage would be in the 12.5 - 13 V range. However, my Envoy has now turned into a project vehicle that has been sitting in a driveway for almost 3 years. The main battery is located in the cargo area of my envoy connected to a keyed disconnect switch under the hood. Every time after I get a chance to start and drive it around the block I disconnect the battery from the rest of the electrical system so that it does not drain.

As far as the battery itself it is a XSPower D3100 so it takes a long time for it to discharge when disconnected from the system.



The_Roadie said:
Or the ignition switch or the two fuses that feed it. Check with a meter.

RED on the ignition switch is 12V, fused by underhood fuse #34, and feeds the following three circuits:

White is hot in ACCY, RUN, START
Orange is hot in RUN
Yellow is hot in START

RED/WHITE is another 12V, fused by underhood fuse #36, and feeds two circuits:

Brown is hot in ACCY, RUN
Pink is hot in RUN, START
Click to expand...

The last time it was the ignition switch, so I replaced it with one from Autozone and it started right up. This time I thought it was the same thing so I replaced it again with no such luck. I will have to attempt the troubleshooting based on the information you gave for the pin outs of the Ignition switch this weekend.

Thanks

MAY03LT said:
Sup man - does anything work? Horn, lights, anything?
Click to expand...

Not much is going on. Just the typical have a bunch of projects but not enough money to do anything with them. I recently inherited a 1953 Pontiac Chieftain with a straight 8 engine. I want to fully restore it, but that we take a lot of time and money of which I have neither these days.

IllogicTC said:
Scary thought but seems to happen this time of year: rodents.

I'm not saying this is your problem. This is just a possibility, and not a really big one, but it does happen. Little buggers find vehicles that sit for a while at a time and crawl up in the engine bay usually, out of the elements. They'll chew wires, build nests, you can even find pictures where they've stored dog food in the air filter box.

But I am smelling flaky wiring if the battery checks out A-OK. Usually a faulty serial line makes everything go bonkers, but it seems like that thing is really kind of "anything goes." Any thoughts from the other pros?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately your scary thought is oh to familiar. About a year ago, I noticed that there were quiet a number of squirrels in the yard and when I opened up the engine bay I found a couple pounds of chewed acorns on top of the engine and most crevices that would hold debris. I vacuumed out all the debris and started it right up without any issues. So far from what I can tell I don't see any evidence of chewed or damaged wiring, but you never know.



Again thank you all for your input. I hope to figure this out so I can at least keep the envoy alive. Even if it remains in a coma for a few weeks/months at a time. One day I will finish my project.
 
culzero said:
Not much is going on. Just the typical have a bunch of projects but not enough money to do anything with them. I recently inherited a 1953 Pontiac Chieftain with a straight 8 engine. I want to fully restore it, but that we take a lot of time and money of which I have neither these days.
Click to expand...

Nice. I feel you on the time/money - my 20lb terrorist takes all of mine. My number hasn't changed.:cool:
 
culzero said:
As far as the battery itself it is a XSPower D3100 so it takes a long time for it to discharge when disconnected from the system.
Click to expand...

Interesting choice to use a deep-cycle battery. Reading up on it, it does appear designed to also offer the high currents needed for a crank cycle, which isn't usually the normal idea behind "true" deep-cycles, but I guess this one was designed with automotive in mind.

Also, deep-cycles actually have a higher self-discharge rate.

"Inactivity can be harmful to deep cycle batteries. If they sit for several months, a "boost" charge should be given; more frequently in warm climate (about once a month) than in cold (every 2-3 months). This is because batteries discharge faster at higher temperatures than at colder temperatures." -batteriesnorthwest.com This could be important to note, though I'm not sure how well this applies to the "automotive-style" DC battery you have rather than a "true" DC.

Really such an upgrade is unnecessary unless you'll be using a bunch of high-power stuff, like running a ridiculous car stereo (especially with the ignition off), or running a winch with the engine off. If you have something like this set up, then it may have been worth paying a ton more than a good Deka starting battery would run you lol.

Commit to the battery tests, as you have an AGM battery there would obviously be no specific gravity test but doing a voltage and load test are of utmost importance.
 
Well last weekend I started to troubleshoot and started with the easiest one. I decided to check to see what the battery level was at. So I hooked up my Optima Digital 1200 charger it said that the battery was at 75% which is plenty enough charged to start the envoy. Well I turned on the charge and let it sit for about 30 minutes and attempted to start it up. Disconnected the charger and the envoy started right up. So I turned it off and put the battery charger back on for another 3hrs. Unfortunately I couldn't get the envoy to start up again.

So I took out the battery and set it up in the garage to charge for a week. I put the freshly charged battery in the envoy this morning hoping it would start right up and nothing happened. The fuel pump would engage but I had no lights on the gauge cluster, no locks, no windows. After a few turns on and off of the key I got the A/C fan to turn on but still nothing else was working. Tried using the remote start to bypass to see if it would get it start and still nothing.

I pulled the ignition switch and checked all the wires had proper voltage per the info from Roadie. All of those checked out and my gauge cluster started working. I had locks, windows, A/C fan, and radio, but it still would not start. I checked all relays and fuses under hood and still wouldn't start. I found one 10amp fuse under the rear seat that was connected to the ignition so I replaced it with one of the spares just b/c even though the fuse was still good. I reinserted the ignition switch b/c I was getting tired of using a screwdriver put the key in and the envoy started right up. I let it run for awhile and then decided to take it to get a quick gas station car wash (about 6 months overdue). I've driven it a few times and started and stopped it a half dozen times, letting the engine run for about 15 minutes minimum each time. The real test is going to be if it will start back up in the morning.


Does anyone have any idea as to why some days it will start with no problems and other days it won't start at all? Could it be I have some relays that are sticking open by not being used on a regular basis?

Thanks,

Justin
 
culzero said:
Does anyone have any idea as to why some days it will start with no problems and other days it won't start at all? Could it be I have some relays that are sticking open by not being used on a regular basis?

Thanks,

Justin
Click to expand...

To answer your question, that isn't very likely. Relays don't really die from not being used - usually it's too much use that kills a relay, or excessively high currents, or moisture.

I find it interesting that it started up after you replaced the 'good' fuse for the ignition. I wonder if your discharged battery could actually have popped that fuse without it appearing to have done so. When a battery starts to discharge, voltage drops, which means that more current is required to do the same task; that additional current might have been the culprit.
 
Take the vehicle out of park and move the shifter back and forth before putting it back in park, also try the neutral position when turning the key..could be a bad/worn park/neutral switch.

Does the engine even turn over? How old is the fuel if it does crank?

culzero said:
Tried using the remote start to bypass to see if it would get it start and still nothing.
Click to expand...

I missed this.....I assume this is aftermarket? I would seriously bypass this first and can easily be your cause.
 
Well so far the envoy is still running strong. I haven't disconnected the battery yet. I watched a video from may03lt last night on a bunch if reasons on why not to disconnect the battery on the tb and envoy platform. I'll try leaving the battery connected and driving on a hopefully weekly basis to see if the problem goes away.

In the past I had been disconnecting the battery so it wouldn't drain from any parasitic loads.
 
culzero said:
In the past I had been disconnecting the battery so it wouldn't drain from any parasitic loads.
Click to expand...

Your situation is a little different - if yours breaks an actuator, you've got the time to fix it. A few members here don't agree with my opinion on the battery disconnect, which is cool - they make valid points with their opinions of the argument. The Roadie even made a cool picture about it recently.:cool:

Back to your problem, I went through the schematics based on your symptoms, particularly the door locks not working at the same time as the cluster. I don't see anything in the ignition switch wiring that would leave the door locks inoperative. The DDM has an 'always hot' power feed (for the locking/unlocking functions) and the cluster has a switched power feed. The DDM and cluster are on separate grounds. So what I would inspect next would be the factory ground wires from the front battery. You should have one going to the drivers inner fender right near the battery, and one to the drivers front strut tower (which then goes to the engine block). Clean and tighten as necessary.

If it does act up again, and the door locks don't work, see if you have 12v on the DDM fuse.
 
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